Lhivera’s Library

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Arcane Crowdsourcing

Friday, June 29 2012 at 4:26pm CDT

I've put in a fair amount of time the last couple of days working with the SimulationCraft devs to get the Mage profiles functional. Not good and optimized, just functional. There's work to be done on all three profiles to improve both the gear configuration and the action priority list.

If you'd like to help, there are a couple of ways you can. First, if you're comfortable compiling SimulationCraft, you can get instructions to do so, and play with the profiles yourself. The command I've been using to make a basic run is:

engine/simc profiles/mop_test/mage_463.simc html=mage_mop.html iterations=10000 max_time=450 report_details=1

If you need help getting it running on a Mac, I can help (you'll need the Mac developer tools installed). If you need help on Windows, there's information at the SimulationCraft site on how to get assistance.

If all that doesn't sound like your thing, you can take a look at the profiles below and add your comments. The Arcane profile in particular is in a bad way; it's simming about 35% lower than Fire and Frost. We know that Blizzard thinks they're very close together, so there's some combination of bad action lists, bad gear, and/or outright bugs in the simulation conspiring to screw up the results.

You can view the profiles here:




Submitted by Kuni Zyrekai on

Oh goody! SimC's running for us now! I don't code, so for now I'll throw any issues I see with the frost profile here.

I do notice that mage bomb is set to =!ticking. LB was changed so that if you refresh during the last tick, you'll still get your explosion when you should, so we should now have ~100% uptime on two bombs. NT acts like a normal DoT, although the refresh window is seriously slim.

There's also the obvious mana gem mana settings. I'm unsure of if it gains from nether attunement's haste benefit, but it should be updated at any rate. I'll see if I can find out if it's benefitting from haste, or meant to at all.

Submitted by Lhivera on

I've been experimenting with adding |duration<gcd to the bomb actions, so that they'll refresh early rather than late. With Nether Tempest, this makes virtually zero difference in DPS (talking low double digits, within the margin of error), so I've left it out. Living Bomb is not yet simulating with the new detonation behavior, so I've left it off of there as well.

Mana Gems are simply not yet working in the sim (they restore 1 mana). But knowing for certain whether they benefit from haste would be useful.

Submitted by Kuni Zyrekai on

I figured NT would have almost no difference. LB's refresh not being implemented I was unaware of.

Mana gem works with haste. I got back 63815 mana with 5.47%+time warp.

Submitted by Qck on

I can't actually check or play with anything at the moment as my compiled version keeps spitting errors at me, but it seems like the Arcane profile is just a 4stack -> reset rotation at the moment, yes?  Is saving an/2 Arcane Missiles proc for 4stack even better? 

With Rune of Power, it's seemingly impossible to do any sort of harsh burns without completely killing your sustained DPS (having no access to Evocation is killer) so that makes sense for the profile roation.  If that IS the optimal way to play Arcane in MoP I find that pretty disappointing, but that's a discussion for another time.  Also, with Rune it feels like there is an overflow of mana, another 1-2+ blast casts after 4 stack is probably more than possible.

Regardless, I wonder if anyone can check if Incanter's Ward with a playstyle more like Cataclysm comes out any better?  It feels like it works on a dummy(it's sustainable anyway) although it's hard to check any damage numbers.

I'll try and get my SimC to work to test for myself if no one else does/can over the next few days anyway.

Submitted by Lhivera on

I've experimented some with, e.g., only discharging stacks if mana dips below various thresholds, or holding onto Arcane Missiles until higher stacks; nothing seems to produce higher numbers, at least with Rune. Invocation seems to be in the sim and working; I'm going to experiment with that a bit today. For Incanter's Ward, we're going to need to wait for it to be implemented; the whole "this passive buff goes away when the active spell is on cooldown" mechanic is new to the sim, I believe.

Submitted by Nathyiel on

First, I think that the race's choice can only be made after the choice of a stabilised profile.

Second, for arcane, Arcane Missile/Arcane Barrage can be tweaked for a better use of the Arcane Charges.


  • actions+=/arcane_barrage,if=buff.arcane_charge.stack=4
  • actions+=/arcane_barrage,if=buff.arcane_charge.stack=3&mana_pct<55


  • actions+=/arcane_missiles,if=buff.arcane_charge.stack>2

Submitted by Lhivera on

The race is a relic of the old profiles; it would probably be better to switch to a neutral race with no Mage-related bonuses (Human, probably). I'll make that change.

See my previous reply to Qck about the actions. If you experiment and find some that increase numbers, let me know, but so far, things like that haven't helped. At least, not with Rune -- they may be more useful with Invocation.

Submitted by Lhivera on

I've updated all three profiles. They're all working better now, including Arcane — there was a bug preventing Arcane Charges from multiplying damage correctly. They can still use refinement, but the Arcane one is no longer completely insane.

Submitted by Qck on

Arcane with Invocation looks good from my results.

I made a new profile for it and changed a few things; I went with Evocation if sub 35% mana or no Invocation buff, keep LB up, and spam AB/AM on procs all the time - no stack reset at all, just full burn all the time.  It came out ~5k(71653) ahead of the current Arcane with Rune profile(66875) in there at the moment with no tweaks to gear at all.  Obviously it's early days, but that news pleases me as I feel crippled w/o Evocation as Arcane as far as my versatility goes.

I'm wondering if we can get an implementation of Incanter's Ward which just has the passive 8% SP and 65% mana regen as a buff with no use effect just to test out a Cata style rotation with that talent.

Liking how close everything seems at this early-ish stage, other than the outlier of Arcane with Invocation(which could just be my crappy profile over-estimating it).  Although it isn't without it's cons - having to channel a full evo so often is a pretty large downside in practice.

http://pastebin.com/xgtQTryh is a link to the quick-and-dirty Invocation profile I tried- it's probably wrong, but it looked okay to me at 4AM.   

Submitted by Lhivera on

With your action list, I'm now getting:

71551 Arcane
64175 Frost
63921 Fire 

Submitted by Lhivera on

I've uncovered some very significant bugs in the Mage module. Working on squashing them and trying to track down more. Crit damage was being hugely overcalculated, and Arcane Missiles were gaining from more charges than they should have.

Submitted by Kuni Zyrekai on

While you're there, check the proc rate of brain freeze on NT. I was getting like 3-6 procs for an entire 450s fight.

Submitted by Lhivera on

Found and fixed that. Have found some other things, too. Spending some time just examining the individual spell data, looking for stuff that seems wrong. As it stands right now, the three specs are simming out very, very differently, so I suspect there's still a lot to find.

Submitted by Qck on

Any reason this is ">1" and not ">0"?
Looks like an increase from ~51.9k to ~59.8k.
I'm guessing it's waiting til 2 stacks before firing an ice lance, which doesn't seem right to me. Would be kind of understandable if there was a different priority for 1 stack as opposed to 2 stacks to prevent missing a proc... but there isn't that I can see.

Submitted by Lhivera on

First, I recommend pulling a new version. I've corrected some massive bugs, which have, unfortunately, knocked Frost down by around 50K.

Second, I've made some changes to the Ice Lance priority already to better suit an encounter with zero movement. When you have movement, it makes sense to hold a charge (unless it's about to expire) so it's available when you move, but for our purposes at the moment, we don't really need that. You should see the updates when you pull.

Submitted by Nathyiel on

For Rune Of Power, is it possible to add /rune_of_power,if=talent.rune_of_power.enabled&!in_combat

What are the scaling with RoF instead of Invoc?

Why Haste is this huge for Frost, even better than Hit?

Even not capped, Crit is far behind Haste. Why don't switching to Frost Armor ?

I think the respond can be found in all the thing that scaling with haste.If I don't forget anythings, we have Mana regen, Invocation, Mage's Bomb, Water Elem, cast time and gcd.

On frost, if Haste is this good even with a lot of haste cooldown (Icy veins/Berserker), did this means that the others stats are really poor?Can we predict some problems with better gears (epic)?

Submitted by Qck on

From my latest run with Invocation Haste(1.3523) is below Hit(1.6774).

Haste is more than likely valued so high because it increases the amount of procs of both BF and FoF as well as all the standard benfits - the DPET of BF-FFB and FoF-IL's compared to FB is ~10-15% more than it was in Cataclysm.  When you couple this with quicker Invocations which Crit does not help, as well as Shatter only being a *2 instead of *3 modifier to crit chance it make sense that haste has gained back a lot of ground, especially in an early level of gear before IV takes some of the sting off it.  With that being said, it is a lot higher than I expected as well.

I'm no wizz at this, but that would be my take on it.

As far as RoP(I'm guessing this what you asked with RoF(?)) goes I'm getting Hit: 1.631 Crit: .8605 Haste 1.2679 Mastery: 0.5407.  Crit is Higher than with Invocation, and Haste is lower - makes sense I guess.

Submitted by Caltiom on

If you want to have a action executed pre-combat it now needs to go into the precombat action list.


The Mage module should be updated to use this new precombat action list in general, usually for all actions which are currently before snapshot_stats.

Submitted by Nathyiel on

Even more, with the lesser proc chance, FoF can drop before even firing Ice Lance.

I think we can change this for taken into account Alter Time:


or something like that.

Submitted by Citizenpete on

Is there any chance to get SimC running with pre-invocation? Invocation would be stronger by a fair amount (especially on fights with shorter durations) and IW would be devalued (it´s passive is too strong) a little bit.

I´m really a fan of the frost bomb mechanic, but NT seems to be superior on patchwerk fights (frost). Do you have any improvements suggestions?

I would like to open the same "Mage Simulation/Theorycrafting" thread on the german forums analog to your thread on the american forums - with your permission, of course (including links from your homepage and so on).

Thanks in advance,


Submitted by Lhivera on

Go right ahead on the post. Send me a link if you don't mind...although it may not be easy to read via babelfish :)

SimC does not yet support pre-pull actions (you can start actions out of combat, but they'll still consume time at the beginning of combat).

Frost Bomb could perhaps use a 9.5-sec cooldown instead of 10 sec. Not sure. It may be OK; it is, after all, stronger in a couple of ways (just not in the ways by which we traditionally measure raid spells).

Submitted by Caltiom on

I just implemented Incanters Ward, as far as I could tell with a quick debug log it works as it should.

use actions+=/incanters_ward to activate the spell ( this will result in it being activated only between gcds. If you can activate it between those you should make it a non-gcd action and add the spell to the off-gcd action list ).

And then for the damage a raid event:


Submitted by Citizenpete on

I didn´t get the logic of PoM in the sample sequenze:

  • First PoM - Invocation on the pull,
  • Second PoM with Frostbolt (Instant) followed by Invocation (canalised)
  • Third with PoM berserking (not a casting spell and not on GCD) Frostbolt (instant) followed by Invo (canalised)
  • Fourth PoM with 3 GCD Instant Spells followed by Frobo (instant) Frobo (casted) and Invocation (canalised)
  • Fifth PoM with instant Frobo followed by3 GCDs and 2 casts before channeling invocation

I think it would be a DPS gain if we delay second PoM and cast frostbolt first followed by instant Invocation, now use third PoM with Frostbolt and channel Invocaton and use PoM with the fourth Invocation and so on

Submitted by Nathyiel on

I think of something like this:

  • actions+=/presence_of_mind,if=talent.presence_of_mind.enabled&(buff.invocation.up|buff.incanters_ward.up)
  • actions+=/presence_of_mind,if=talent.presence_of_mind.enabled&talent.rune_of_power.enabled

I can't test it right now.

Submitted by Nathyiel on

Some trinket optimisation:

  • actions+=/use_item,name=flashfrozen_rosin_globule,if=(mana.pct>20|target.time_to_die<=25)&talent.incanters_ward.enabled
  • actions+=/use_item,name=flashfrozen_rosin_globule,if=buff.rune_of_power.remains>25|buff.invocation.remains>=25

Submitted by Marduk on

The profiles of Arcane with RoP (http://lhiveras-library.com/sites/lhiveras-library.com/files/mage_combin...) show that there is huge loss of mana regen due to overflow (~20%).

To reduce the overflow I decided to increase the amount of Arcane Blasts by just adding the following line to the action priority list (directly after the use of the trinkets):

  • arcane_blast,if=mana.pct>92

With this line the dps output of Rune/Arcane is quite simliar to the dps of Invocation/Arcane (within a few hundred dps).

Maybe someone with more experience in SimCraft than myself (I used it for the first time) can optimize it a little bit more ;)

Submitted by Citizenpete on

Is PoM working with Invocation? I just asssumed it, because of some forum posts, because it´s not possible on live with canalised spells (don´t have access to beta atm).

Submitted by Lhivera on

POM has never worked with channeled spells before -- I don't expect it would start now.

Submitted by Trelane on

I was curious how the 6-stack Arcane Charges would affect gameplay so I grabbed the code and tweaked the spell tables (hopefully correctly) with the recent changes.  A few observations from using the Invocation profile:

1) The current profile ends up waiting around at the end of the fight apparently because there is no mana left to cast. Changing the evocation rule to cast closer to the end of the fight seems to avoid this:


2) This Arcane Barrage rule needs updating: 


should probably be stack>=4/5/6.   
3) Surprisingly the Invocation strategy is STILL to burn out your mana at 6 charges and evocate.  The uptime on 6-stack Charge is over 90%.  Trying to insert an Arcane Barrage in there to drop stacks always seems to be a DPS loss.  I think one reason is after stacks are dropped, you are doing terrible DPS until they stack up again, and now you have to rebuild *six* stacks.  Mathematically it appears superior to keep the stacks and evocate more.  
4) Because of the above, the Patchwerk profile pretty much never casts Arcane Barrage (and spends 20% of the fight evocating). On the other hand, Helter-Skelter profile Barrages a great deal while moving, and evocates much less.   But given that Barrage drops stacks, an interesting question is whether it is even worthwhile to cast it when moving.  Turns out it is more-or-less DPS neutral to use Barrage or not while moving.  Conclusion: Arcane Barrage is pretty much useless to Invokers.